The bright side of Callan Ward Leaving

[angelopetraglia]

After a dark, dark day yesterday, the sun has come up again and it is time to look at the positives for the Bulldogs;

1. Hopefully we get to play GWS twice next year
Hopefully the AFL tries to milk it like they did with Ablett. Hopefully we get to play GWS twice and smash the living suitcases out of them.

2. We get compensated
Let's hope we get two first round picks. With the right selections we can help secure our future

3. At least he is not going to Collingwood, Essendon or Carlton
He is not going to make a contender stronger or go to one of the despised 'big' clubs. He is going to GWS. Western Sydney .... has anyone been there lately? I could not think of a worse place to live in Australia. Also, he has to play under Kevin Sheedy, from all recent reports he has lost the plot.

4. It could have been worse, we could have lost Griffen
Ward is a good player (he isn't and will never be a Chris Grant superstar type). He was going to be a very good player. But he isn't our best player, not even close. Hopefully Libba and Wallis can develop and fill the void.

5. We have not destroyed our salary cap
Paying Ward way over the odds could have been a disaster for the club. We could have put ourselves in big danger of being pillaged by free agency. If we overpaid Ward and then subsequently underpaid others, we could have left ourselves vulnerable. Hopefully we can now secure our best players and look to make some plays of our own in the free agency market.

6. We have avoided some morale issues
Overpaying young Ward could have caused big issues with our established elite players. A young 21 year old with potential could have been paid more than proven performers and B&F winners. This is a recipe for disaster.

[Sedat]

Some reasonable points there, but just to balance it out, we don't have Neil Balme as or head of footy ops nor do we have Stephen Wells doing our recruiting. Some huge faith needs to be placed in our equivalents to make the right decisions in the next couple of years to reap any potential rewards from Ward's departure - misplaced faith going on previous results to be brutally honest.

[ReLoad]

Some reasonable points there, but just to balance it out, we don't have Neil Balme as or head of footy ops nor do we have Stephen Wells doing our recruiting. Some huge faith needs to be placed in our equivalents to make the right decisions in the next couple of years to reap any potential rewards from Ward's departure - misplaced faith going on previous results to be brutally honest.

Dood, you are a serious one trick pony, you harp on and on about your love for the current operations team even turning discussions which realistically are not related back to your agenda.

Give a bone, please?

[w3design]

If the right decisions are made (all fingers crossed) we should win out of this....

[Mofra]

Dood, you are a serious one trick pony, you harp on and on about your love for the current operations team even turning discussions which realistically are not related back to your agenda.
I thought they were valid points :confused:

I actually have a bit of faith in Dalrymple as a recruiter, although I still have the jury firmly out on Howard - as good as Calyton's drafting was, his record with first rounders was awful.

[LostDoggy]

#4, #5 & #6 were big issues for me. I liked Ward and think he is going to be a great player (not a superstar, ref #4), however I was afraid that the club would engage in an all out $ shootout with a bottomless pit. If this had happened and Ward stayed, the can of worms it would have opened would really have thrown a cat amongst the pigeons as far as the clubs future was concerned.

[Murphy'sLore]

Cats, pigeons, worms in a bottomless pit - crikey, that would have got nasty :)

[Prince Imperial]

Even if we don't trade for a name from another club the 400k+ we will save next year (and perhaps afterwards) can be reinvested in our football department and/or used to repay debt. Apart from our players' salaries we have the lowest football department spending so this should help improve the development or recruitment of the other 40 odd players we will have on our list.

[Sedat]

Dood, you are a serious one trick pony, you harp on and on about your love for the current operations team even turning discussions which realistically are not related back to your agenda.How are the issues of Callan Ward's compensation, how those picks will be used and our future list management composition (all topics discussed on thia thread) not intrinsically related to our head of footy ops and recruiting manager? Simple answer is that they are.

[1eyedog]

After a dark, dark day yesterday, the sun has come up again and it is time to look at the positives for the Bulldogs;

1. Hopefully we get to play GWS twice next year
Hopefully the AFL tries to milk it like they did with Ablett. Hopefully we get to play GWS twice and smash the living suitcases out of them.

2. We get compensated
Let's hope we get two first round picks. With the right selections we can help secure our future

3. At least he is not going to Collingwood, Essendon or Carlton
He is not going to make a contender stronger or go to one of the despised 'big' clubs. He is going to GWS. Western Sydney .... has anyone been there lately? I could not think of a worse place to live in Australia. Also, he has to play under Kevin Sheedy, from all recent reports he has lost the plot.

4. It could have been worse, we could have lost Griffen
Ward is a good player (he is and will never be a Chris Grant superstar type). He was going to be a very good player. But he isn't our best player, not even close. Hopefully Libba and Wallis can develop and fill the void.

5. We have not destroyed our salary cap
Paying Ward way over the odds could have been a disaster for the club. We could have put our self in big danger of being pillaged by free agency. If we overpaid Ward and then subsequently underpaid others, we could have left ourselves vulnerable. Hopefully we can now secure our best players and look to make some plays of our own in the free agency market.

6. We have avoided some morale issues
Overpaying young Ward could have caused big issues with our established elite players. A young 21 year old with potential could have been paid more than proven performers and B&F winners. This is a recipe for disaster.

Agreed, I hope both can be better than Ward to offset the loss and, in effect, make his defection irrelevant.

[ledge]

Upgrade McMahon=Ward=2 future Johnathon Browns greatest coo ever in the history of footy.
Problem??
GWS are our greatest partnership ever.

[Doc26]

Upgrade McMahon=Ward=2 future Johnathon Browns greatest coo ever in the history of footy.
Problem??
GWS are our greatest partnership ever.

Yes and Mark Stevens, as reported, believes Richmond has the last laugh in this deal :confused:. Has he changed allegiance or is it all part of a cunning propaganda plan as Lantern alludes to ?

[G-Mo77]

Upgrade McMahon=Ward=2 future Johnathon Browns greatest coo ever in the history of footy.
Problem??
GWS are our greatest partnership ever.

Could also be 2 future Tim Walsh's.

[Twodogs]

5. We have not destroyed our salary cap
Paying Ward way over the odds could have been a disaster for the club. We could have put ourselves in big danger of being pillaged by free agency. If we overpaid Ward and then subsequently underpaid others, we could have left ourselves vulnerable. Hopefully we can now secure our best players and look to make some plays of our own in the free agency market.


^^^^^

This. Good thread AP. I really, really liked Callan as a player but trying to match the limitless money that GWS could afford to throw at him would have badly affected our TPP over the next few years. I'm not happy with him going but I would have been less happy if we'd have to lose a Cooney or a Griff further down the track to accomadate his salary.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Some reasonable points there, but just to balance it out, we don't have Neil Balme as or head of footy ops nor do we have Stephen Wells doing our recruiting. Some huge faith needs to be placed in our equivalents to make the right decisions in the next couple of years to reap any potential rewards from Ward's departure - misplaced faith going on previous results to be brutally honest.

A bit rich to be making comparisons with the most successful club in the past 5 years. Maybe you should have included Frank Costa and Brian Cook together with Mark Thompson as the major catalysts for the Cats success.

[westdog54]

Yes and Mark Stevens, as reported, believes Richmond has the last laugh in this deal :confused:. Has he changed allegiance or is it all part of a cunning propaganda plan as Lantern alludes to ?

As cunning as a fox that's just been appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford?

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

After a dark, dark day yesterday, the sun has come up again and it is time to look at the positives for the Bulldogs;

1. Hopefully we get to play GWS twice next year
Hopefully the AFL tries to milk it like they did with Ablett. Hopefully we get to play GWS twice and smash the living suitcases out of them.

2. We get compensated
Let's hope we get two first round picks. With the right selections we can help secure our future

3. At least he is not going to Collingwood, Essendon or Carlton
He is not going to make a contender stronger or go to one of the despised 'big' clubs. He is going to GWS. Western Sydney .... has anyone been there lately? I could not think of a worse place to live in Australia. Also, he has to play under Kevin Sheedy, from all recent reports he has lost the plot.

4. It could have been worse, we could have lost Griffen
Ward is a good player (he isn't and will never be a Chris Grant superstar type). He was going to be a very good player. But he isn't our best player, not even close. Hopefully Libba and Wallis can develop and fill the void.

5. We have not destroyed our salary cap
Paying Ward way over the odds could have been a disaster for the club. We could have put ourselves in big danger of being pillaged by free agency. If we overpaid Ward and then subsequently underpaid others, we could have left ourselves vulnerable. Hopefully we can now secure our best players and look to make some plays of our own in the free agency market.

6. We have avoided some morale issues
Overpaying young Ward could have caused big issues with our established elite players. A young 21 year old with potential could have been paid more than proven performers and B&F winners. This is a recipe for disaster.

This is an excellent response and worthy of commendation. We have suffered because of the AFL's poor decision to not include restrictions on how young talent can be gained by GWS from struggling clubs, eg Bulldogs, Demons and Crows. It's all about the money at the expense of a competitive competition.

[LostDoggy]

I agree with the OP. We would have been paying Ward more than his worth if he stayed.

If we get two first rounders we will be in front.

[bornadog]

WlBiLNN1NhQ

[immortalmike]

I agree entirely with the O.P.
I was starting to think I was the only one worried about paying a decent promising young midfielder the same amount as a 2 time All Australian full back and our reigning best and fairest winner. This is especially salient when you consider that we have too many of Ward's type at present and Tom Liberatore's first year has been much better than Callan's first 3 combined.

[mjp]

I was lucky enough to spend some time with Chris Scott earlier this year. He said that Ablett leaving saved 4-5 other players on the list from being traded/leaving for more money and they had faith the recruiters would get it right.

He wasn't too stressed at the idea of losing someone else to GWS.

[AndrewP6]

I was lucky enough to spend some time with Chris Scott earlier this year. He said that Ablett leaving saved 4-5 other players on the list from being traded/leaving for more money and they had faith the recruiters would get it right.

He wasn't too stressed at the idea of losing someone else to GWS.

If we were in 2nd place rather than 10th, I wouldn't be quite so concerned either.

[azabob]

I was lucky enough to spend some time with Chris Scott earlier this year. He said that Ablett leaving saved 4-5 other players on the list from being traded/leaving for more money and they had faith the recruiters would get it right.

He wasn't too stressed at the idea of losing someone else to GWS.

Two questions - 1) Was he very impressive as he appears in the media? 2) What is your signature from? ive been wondering about question two for a longtime.

[Remi Moses]

I agree entirely with the O.P.
I was starting to think I was the only one worried about paying a decent promising young midfielder the same amount as a 2 time All Australian full back and our reigning best and fairest winner. This is especially salient when you consider that we have too many of Ward's type at present and Tom Liberatore's first year has been much better than Callan's first 3 combined.

It's probably the next 12 months we'll miss Ward.
Got no doubts after that Libba and Mitch will be as good if not better than Ward.

[GetDimmaBack]

It's probably the next 12 months we'll miss Ward.
Got no doubts after that Libba and Mitch will be as good if not better than Ward.

Agreed.

During the whole drawn out saga, I couldn't help thinking that Libba & Wallis would be able to cover the gap left by Ward, sooner rather than later.

Paying him enough to keep him would have been the mother of all mistakes.

[Mantis]

During the whole drawn out saga, I couldn't help thinking that Libba & Wallis would be able to cover the gap left by Ward, sooner rather than later.



Neither of those 2 have shown the ability to hit a contest at pace and break away like Ward can.

They are completely different players.

[1eyedog]

Neither of those 2 have shown the ability to hit a contest at pace and break away like Ward can.

They are completely different players.

never really saw this from Ward in his first 12 games either.

Agree that Libba Jnr is a different player but potentially no less effective in his way. I think Wallis is the one we've all been excited about.

They'll take time

[Sedat]

Neither of those 2 have shown the ability to hit a contest at pace and break away like Ward can.
The best description of Ward I can think of is Selwood-lite. That's not a criticism - he is extremely proficient in all aspects of the game, but just notch below Selwood in each of them.

Will he improve to become an A-grader of the competition? Not so sure. To me he looks like the prototype very good footballer who will have a quality AFL career that will be very consistent. I'm not sure he has any extra gears that he can take his game to. It will be interesting to see his progress at what will be a bottom-end team for the next few seasons - no Griffen, Cooney, Boyd and Cross to help share the load in the middle.

[anfo27]

Ward leaving could be the best thing for us if we get 2 first rounders and we nail those picks with some really talented kids. Jordie McMahon could be the gift that just keeps giving. Thank you plough.

[GVGjr]

Ward leaving could be the best thing for us if we get 2 first rounders and we nail those picks with some really talented kids. Jordie McMahon could be the gift that just keeps giving. Thank you plough.

In my opinion we are very unlikely to get 2 first round picks for Ward. At best we might get a 1st and 2nd round pick.

I hope I'm wrong but I'm not sure why the club is playing this aspect out in the media.

Our track record of late hasn't been great:

We tried that by valuing Josh Hill as a top 20 pick during trade week and we struggled with the expectation from a president who said a GF was the pass mark. On Saturday went public that we were still in with a chance to keep Ward when apparently we knew we weren't. Now we are potentially setting up the fans for another hit by being so public about the value of Wards departure come draft day. If we come up short again how will that reflect on us? Sure we can point the finger at the AFL for cheating us but I see no reason for us to set the expectation so highly.

[W W Biscuit]

As cunning as a fox that's just been appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford?

Aaahh, Blackadder. Good work :)

[KT31]

One positive is I have always worried he is so hard at the ball he will get injured.
Now it is not worry, but more hope !
Allah Judas !!

[macca]

Ward leaving will free up 400K+ a year in the salary cap. It will provide room for us to rebuild, and increment new recruits/improvers salaries over the next 3 years. On top of that the 1999 old guard like Gia, Cross, and Hargrave in the twight of their careers will gives us room to grow. Its a good thing. We should not be held to ransom on one player's inflated salary. The Jade Rawlings deal hurt us in 2003 and for several years to come, imagine the rookies we could have gotten ?

[kruder]

It's probably the next 12 months we'll miss Ward.
Got no doubts after that Libba and Mitch will be as good if not better than Ward.

What has Wallis shown you to think he will be a good player? I havent see anything yet at VFL or AFL level that I like.

Libba on the other had has shown alot.

[Remi Moses]

What has Wallis shown you to think he will be a good player? I havent see anything yet at VFL or AFL level that I like.

Libba on the other had has shown alot.

Blimey, how many games? He'll make it just be patient.
Ward came into a side going nicely, just get games into him.
Judge a player after 30 to 40 games .

[the banker]

Wallis can find the ball, is proficient by hand and foot, has good composure and obviously understands the game. Once he gets on top of the tempo, and builds endurance I think he could be an accumulator.
Maybe lacks a burst of speed.

[Bulldog4life]

The bright side for me is the Club will not being paying overs "450,000" to a player probably worth at the moment 300,000 to 350,000 max.
It could quite possibly have made things ugly with future negotiations with our players.
Let him run round now with the huge price tag on his head trying to justify it on a weekly basis. I don't think he will be able to.

[GVGjr]

The bonus can be our ability to attract a player from another side with a decent financial offer.

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

As cunning as a fox that's just been appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford?

So cunning you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel

[FrediKanoute]

Am over the Ward saga in a big way, I've said my piece on other threads.

I will only add that what AP's posted is all true. Whilst I wished Ward wouuld have stayed his leaving means we can now move on and get into the club guys who want to play for the club.

I don't think we'll get that well compensated, especially with Palmer and probably Scully going to GWS as well, but so long as we use the pick well we will do well.

[bornadog]

Blimey, how many games? He'll make it just be patient.
Ward came into a side going nicely, just get games into him.
Judge a player after 30 to 40 games .

Absolutely, god some people expect a Coooney/Griffen from day one.

Teenagers growing up from age 18 to 21 go through dramatic body changes as well as what goes on in their head. This will determine how they shape up for the future.

[1eyedog]

Blimey, how many games? He'll make it just be patient.
Ward came into a side going nicely, just get games into him.
Judge a player after 30 to 40 games .

This.


Wallis can find the ball, is proficient by hand and foot, has good composure and obviously understands the game. Once he gets on top of the tempo, and builds endurance I think he could be an accumulator.
Maybe lacks a burst of speed.

This. But we won't have to compensate for his lack of speed when Boyd and Cross retire, he will be our premier inside mid post 50 games.

[mjp]

Two questions - 1) Was he very impressive as he appears in the media? 2) What is your signature from? ive been wondering about question two for a longtime.

Chris Scott is pretty good. Had a bit to do with him when he was at Freo and was pleased when he stopped by for a chat during the championships.

Signature? Opening line of the opening track on the Afghan Wigs 'Gentleman' album from 1993.

[Maddog37]

Absolutely, god some people expect a Coooney/Griffen from day one.

Teenagers growing up from age 18 to 21 go through dramatic body changes as well as what goes on in their head. This will determine how they shape up for the future.

I see Wallis as a Steel Sidebottom type less the goal kicking ability. Not super quick but still seems to be in the right spot.

The main thing I like about him is that he is his a one touch player. Check out his pass to Barry on Saturday as well. About 45 metres on his chest with a bloke up his clacker and another player sitting a few metres in front of Baz. Perfectly weighted.

Keen to work defensively also.

[always right]

I agree entirely with the O.P.
I was starting to think I was the only one worried about paying a decent promising young midfielder the same amount as a 2 time All Australian full back and our reigning best and fairest winner. This is especially salient when you consider that we have too many of Ward's type at present and Tom Liberatore's first year has been much better than Callan's first 3 combined.

Are you serious? Too many of Ward's type? Can you please name them.

As for the last statement....sure Libba had a terrific first year but his lack of pace is of some concern. Jury still out to some degree. Ward had an excellent season this year and still has plenty of upside. Let's not kid ourselves...we have lost a very good footballer.

Agree we did the right thing by not offering him an overly-inflated salary.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

The bonus can be our ability to attract a player from another side with a decent financial offer.

I would favour the development of our own talent where we have had some great successes, eg. Griffen, Boyd, Murphy, Morris, Dalhaus, Jones, Cross, Liberatore, Wallis etc.
Geelong has followed this approach remarkably well with the exceptions of Ottens and Mooney who have now been with the club a long while.It was great to see so many of our senior players at the Williamstown final last Sunday, which suggested that there is a great deal of comradie amongst the players. You would have been impressed for example with the performance of Panos, who showed enough to suggest he will become a key position player next year. The recruitment of Hall even though his two years at the club was terrific and Akermanis were at best stop gap measures. To continue down this track is fraught with danger.

[1eyedog]

I see Wallis as a Steel Sidebottom type less the goal kicking ability. Not super quick but still seems to be in the right spot.

The main thing I like about him is that he is his a one touch player. Check out his pass to Barry on Saturday as well. About 45 metres on his chest with a bloke up his clacker and another player sitting a few metres in front of Baz. Perfectly weighted.

Keen to work defensively also.

I see him as a Callan Ward type with better skills, more composure and a higher level of loyalty.

[ledge]

As they were in juniors Liberatore to Wallis eg Williams to Bradley, MacPherson to Cameron.
Wallis the neat finisher and Liberatore the in, under and giver.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The bonus can be our ability to attract a player from another side with a decent financial offer.

Should we do this though?

I think we need to draft. We cannot afford toburn another trade, or pay overs. With where our list is at, drafting seems most appropriate IMO.

[LostDoggy]

Should we do this though?

I think we need to draft. We cannot afford toburn another trade, or pay overs. With where our list is at, drafting seems most appropriate IMO.

Our recent drafting of forward talls (bar Jones) is deplorable though, so Jesse White for a 2nd round draft pick is a no-brainer (they'll never take it -- they'll want a first rounder). Shores up KPFs for the next 10 years with Jones.

Seriously, Cloke was up and down for a couple of years there too. This kid has all the tools.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Our recent drafting of forward talls (bar Jones) is deplorable though, so Jesse White for a 2nd round draft pick is a no-brainer. Shores up KPFs for the next 10 years with Jones.

In theory it sounds good, but we're not going to get White (or any young, half decent KPF) with a second round pick. Especially in this year's draft.

We'd have to trade our first pick to be a chance at nabbing a quality player. I'd rather bank Ward's compensation for next year and use this years first pick to get the best available pacey mid or KPD.

[LostDoggy]

In theory it sounds good, but we're not going to get White (or any young, half decent KPF) with a second round pick. Especially in this year's draft.

We'd have to trade our first pick to be a chance at nabbing a quality player. I'd rather bank Ward's compensation for next year and use this years first pick to get the best available pacey mid or KPD.

Yeah, sorry, you got in before my edit -- I said that they wouldn't go for a 2nd rounder and would want a first rounder for White.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Yeah, sorry, you got in before my edit -- I said that they wouldn't go for a 2nd rounder and would want a first rounder for White.

Would you be prepared to give up our first pick for White - or any other youngish KPF? Butcher? ;)

I think we should try to convince Brown from West Coast, but again, getting a 'fair' deal is nigh on impossible when you're involving the tall forwards/defenders. You pay through your nose, and we're in a very delicate position as a club right now.

[LostDoggy]

I know Lakey is an AA fullback, and would never trade him against his wishes, but if he wanted out, he's at least worth 1 first rounder + something (either a second round pick, or maybe a young mid-tier player). Hypothetically, if we get a 1st and 2nd for Ward as well, we're looking at 3 first round picks and 3 second round picks.

Surely we can nab some quality emerging players from around the traps with a couple of those picks and get fans excited again with signs of a quality rebuilding project.

[LostDoggy]

Would you be prepared to give up our first pick for White - or any other youngish KPF? Butcher? ;)
.

In this compromised draft? For White? In a heartbeat, actually, but I know I'll be shouted down for it. Not in the 2012 uncompromised draft though.

For Butcher, nothing. He'll play some good games here and there, but be a list-clogger in 2 seasons -- a serviceable third tall, if those even exist anymore.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I know Lakey is an AA fullback, and would never trade him against his wishes, but if he wanted out, he's at least worth 1 first rounder + something (either a second round pick, or maybe a young mid-tier player). Hypothetically, if we get a 1st and 2nd for Ward as well, we're looking at 3 first round picks and 3 second round picks.

Surely we can nab some quality emerging players from around the traps with a couple of those picks and get fans excited again with signs of a quality rebuilding project.

Lake's big contract wouldn't do us any favours at the trade table though. Without it, he'd command what you listed above, but with it I think we'd only be able to get a first round pick.

It may be tempting, especially if he's entertaining leaving, but I think losing Ward and Lake would be far too much in one year for the club (and its 'brand' / the supporters) to handle.

Hawthorn and Carlton would surely be interested to a degree if we put the line out.

[Sedat]

It may be tempting, especially if he's entertaining leaving, but I think losing Ward and Lake would be far too much in one year for the club (and its 'brand' / the supporters) to handle.
In real terms, we won 9 games this year with nothing from Lake and a strong contribution from Ward, not to mention a string of injuries to other key players. Libba and Wallis won't match Ward in 2012 but they'd combine for 70% of his output you'd imagine. Long story short, we'd go close to matching our 2011 output in 2012 even with Lake and Ward off our list. Worth some thought IMO.

Lake will be worth negligable value from 2012 onwards at the trade table, so if you were to strike it would be this year. Selling the future vision clearly hasn't been our strong suit (WTF is a refresh), but a full rebuild would start to take shape under such a scenario, and if sold with realism and honesty to the punters it would be palatable. Throw in a Higgins for potential trade consideration and we're looking at a full scale rebuild, but one that will give some serious arsenal behind Dalrymple to unleash at the draft table.

Losing Ward, Lake and Higgins in the one off-season would be ballsy in the extreme - so don't bank on it happening.

[GVGjr]

Should we do this though?

I think we need to draft. We cannot afford toburn another trade, or pay overs. With where our list is at, drafting seems most appropriate IMO.

Not many successful sides don't trade for players so providing we target the right type of player and in this instance a player that still has a significant upside instead of a battled hardened veteran with just 2 3 or years left in them then I don't see the problem. We simply don't need to look an Akermanis or a Hall given the state of our list.

You will already be aware of my view that we have to back our recruiters but a trade for the right type of player could just support that.

[mjp]

I keep reading that 2012 is 'uncompromised'. This is just not true.

1/.GWS can still take uncontracted players (Ward situation).
2/.GWS are trading the countries best 17yo's (O'Meara, Garlett et al) this year...they would be 2012 draftees in 'normal' circumstances. So the best few players could be off the board...

There wont be an uncompromised draft for another couple of years!

[Mitcha]

In my opinion we are very unlikely to get 2 first round picks for Ward. At best we might get a 1st and 2nd round pick.

I hope I'm wrong but I'm not sure why the club is playing this aspect out in the media.
I believe the club is right on demanding 2 first round picks for Ward. The media are claiming we are dreaming wanting that comparing him to Ablett. In reality we are comparing Ward to Scully as the AFL came out earlier in the year and said Melbourne would get 2 first rounders if Scully went to GWS. Surely Ward is rated more highly than Scully (with a degenerative knee problem) hence our demand.

[GetDimmaBack]

never really saw this from Ward in his first 12 games either.

Agree that Libba Jnr is a different player but potentially no less effective in his way. I think Wallis is the one we've all been excited about.

They'll take time

Neither had you when you were 18, but you became a champion! :D

[Mitcha]

Wallis the neat finisher
Debateable

[Sedat]

I keep reading that 2012 is 'uncompromised'. This is just not true.

1/.GWS can still take uncontracted players (Ward situation).
2/.GWS are trading the countries best 17yo's (O'Meara, Garlett et al) this year...they would be 2012 draftees in 'normal' circumstances. So the best few players could be off the board...

There wont be an uncompromised draft for another couple of years!
Do you think we should trade our way into this 'mini-draft' via a Lake and/or Higgins combination if you had the chance to pick up one of these 17yo's? And if so, which one will fill a long-term need for us? I m guessing any one of them if the sheer talent is there.

Is this GWS 17yo mini-draft the same type of scenario as when Essendon got Matty Lloyd? Wasn't he a 16yo compensation pick that would normally have been bound for the expansion club Freo, but instead they decided to exchange this pick for Todd Ridley and Tony Delaney?

[Maddog37]

Sedat, I really do not like the idea of trading Lake. He is old and he may not play in a flag with the club but he is a champion. He produces the goods and to say bye bye after one bad year is not sensible IMO.

Higgins on the other and I am not so sure about..........

[LostDoggy]

Sedat, I really do not like the idea of trading Lake. He is old and he may not play in a flag with the club but he is a champion. He produces the goods and to say bye bye after one bad year is not sensible IMO.
..........

I love Lakey, but i feel the club and supporters have for worse enjoyed the romance of a player being a 200-300 gamer with us. Look at the 99-02's in the team now. Most have been excellent footballers, even club greats, but ultimately have failed in winning a premiership. None will be there, and if they are, they certainly wont be key to out next premiership tilt.

It's time we looked hard at the future of this club on the field. Lake is still worthy of a early first round & 2nd round combo. In two years time he'll likely be worth nothing. I'd be sad to see him go. But i'd prefer we actively sort out our next premiership core, not get another name in gold writing on the players honour board.

[LostDoggy]

I love Lakey, but i feel the club and supporters have for worse enjoyed the romance of a player being a 200-300 gamer with us. Look at the 99-02's in the team now. Most have been excellent footballers, even club greats, but ultimately have failed in winning a premiership. None will be there, and if they are, they certainly wont be key to out next premiership tilt.

It's time we looked hard at the future of this club on the field. Lake is still worthy of a early first round & 2nd round combo. In two years time he'll likely be worth nothing. I'd be sad to see him go. But i'd prefer we actively sort out our next premiership core, not get another name in gold writing on the players honour board.

^^^ This. Plus isn't it a win: win if we engaged with Lake on this and tried to trade him to a club that was near a premiership tilt but needed an AA Full back or really good forward (e.g Carlton or Hawthorn?) I would think we could get a couple of early first rounders for Lake in some form of three way trade and if he wants to try for a premiership it can't be with us because of timing. I'm not against him gone if it's mutually beneficial and desired.

[Maddog37]

I think you are overselling his trade value.

[1eyedog]

Would you be prepared to give up our first pick for White - or any other youngish KPF? Butcher? ;)

I think we should try to convince Brown from West Coast, but again, getting a 'fair' deal is nigh on impossible when you're involving the tall forwards/defenders. You pay through your nose, and we're in a very delicate position as a club right now.

Signed about a month ago

[1eyedog]

Neither had you when you were 18, but you became a champion! :D

If I had the slightest inclination what you were on about I may have understood the point of selecting that emoticon for the end of your sentence.

You must be referring to Macho.

[LostDoggy]

Sedat, I really do not like the idea of trading Lake. He is old and he may not play in a flag with the club but he is a champion. He produces the goods and to say bye bye after one bad year is not sensible IMO.

Higgins on the other and I am not so sure about..........
One bad year of INJURY not form, give Brian some support please.

[1eyedog]

Do you think we should trade our way into this 'mini-draft' via a Lake and/or Higgins combination if you had the chance to pick up one of these 17yo's? And if so, which one will fill a long-term need for us? I m guessing any one of them if the sheer talent is there.

Is this GWS 17yo mini-draft the same type of scenario as when Essendon got Matty Lloyd? Wasn't he a 16yo compensation pick that would normally have been bound for the expansion club Freo, but instead they decided to exchange this pick for Todd Ridley and Tony Delaney?

If I agree that we should start doing this then I must also reconcile myself to the fact that there is little incentive for others not to be tempted by the money elsewhere.

Maybe we need to make these tough calls and maybe I need to understand that football has changed. A lot.

[immortalmike]

Are you serious? Too many of Ward's type? Can you please name them.

As for the last statement....sure Libba had a terrific first year but his lack of pace is of some concern. Jury still out to some degree. Ward had an excellent season this year and still has plenty of upside. Let's not kid ourselves...we have lost a very good footballer.

Agree we did the right thing by not offering him an overly-inflated salary.

Firstly I said type not exactly the same. I.e, inside mids, so in that case, Boyd, Cross, Addison, Reid, Picken, Libba, Wallis.

Libba is no slower than Ward, actually both he and Wallis tested quite well at the Draft camp. As for my statemen Ward's first year was good, second decent and third (apart from the prelim) horrible. To contrast Libba has had one of the best debut seasons I've seen at this club (I think people forget how good he was earlier in the year).

At no stage did I say Ward wasn't a very good footballer just that were better off covering his loss rather than overinflating the wage of a 21 inside mid who is very good at best and inconsistent at worst.

[GetDimmaBack]

:o
If I had the slightest inclination what you were on about I may have understood the point of selecting that emoticon for the end of your sentence.

You must be referring to Macho.


Sorry 1eye, I quoted the wrong post!

Was referring to Mantis' post on page 2...:o

[1eyedog]

:o


Sorry 1eye, I quoted the wrong post!

Was referring to Mantis' post on page 2...:o

Now I'm with ya:cool:

[Rocket Science]

One bad year of INJURY not form, give Brian some support please.

This.

Besides even aside from speculation as to Bryza's trade value, noting we'd be committing the masterstroke of shopping him when at his (value-wise) lowest ebb, I'm less than satisfied we wouldn't simply piss away any acquired draft picks anyway.

Rebuild or not, discarding Lake now would be an egregious mistake.

[Ghost Dog]

This.

Besides even aside from speculation as to Bryza's trade value, noting we'd be committing the masterstroke of shopping him when at his (value-wise) lowest ebb, I'm less than satisfied we wouldn't simply piss away any acquired draft picks anyway.

Rebuild or not, discarding Lake now would be an egregious mistake.

Such a punitive attitude around the club at the moment.

We already overreacted and got rid of one of the best coaches in the league, which may turn out alright at the end of the day, but we are on shaky ground a la Richmond IMO.

That desperation and impatience can turn out to be costly.

[LostDoggy]

We have to very careful about the idea we should rebuild with lots of youngsters. We are going to lose big bodies in Hall and Hudson. Bodies that can protect the younger brigade. To throw out Lake as well would seem to be inviting a season where we may wilt under the pressure of sustained battle. Experience and strong bodies do count for something.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

One bad year of INJURY not form, give Brian some support please.
I agree with this. We are talking about an AA custodian with a team that this year had a decimated defence. Higgins is a different proposition and certainly tradeable. Has rarely risen to the heights that his reputation demands. A handy back flanker at best and given the fact that he is injury prone, I suspect we have seen the best of him.

[LostDoggy]

I think what the posters are trying to say here is not about hating on Lake but rebuilding a club. Lake probably has 2 years at best being a great player (all things being equal and if he has some luck). Unfortunately the Western Bulldogs will not be a premiership contender in those 2 years. So there is an option now to trade him off as he has the AA value and get possibly two future Brian Lakes for him. If he stays on cool, he plays well, we all love him, finish around 9-12 place the next two years then his contract is up and he has zero value on the market. We get nothing for him and miss having "the next guy" coming through when our other youngsters (Libba, Wally, Dolly etc) are ripe.