Preliminary Finals

[The Coon Dog]

Has the wobble started?

[Desipura]

Has the wobble started?

One can only hope:D

[chef]

C'mon the Hawks

[AndrewP6]

I really, really, really hope the Dawks, get this done

[LostDoggy]

The afl is a joke. Giving the pies 2 goals and ripping the hawks of 1 right at the death in a tight one. Give me a break.

[LostDoggy]

Nah, can't support the Hawks and their bullshit unsociable footy. Suffer in their jocks.

(Leon) Cameron must be sick of prelims.

[The Coon Dog]

Shoemakers & Bateman, costly!

[LostDoggy]

The afl is a joke. Giving the pies 2 goals and ripping the hawks of 1 right at the death in a tight one. Give me a break.

? -- if anything the ump just put his whistle away; Hawks got away with a blatant throw, three high tackles in the last quarter, in the back all over the ground etc.

[Remi Moses]

Reckon Bateman's shot.
Hawks killed in clearances in the last, the lack of a key back killed them!
Pies still not firing and you'd fancy the Cats if they get through.

[azabob]

Shoemakers & Bateman, costly!

Bateman especially. Three kicks in a row he turned over.

[Desipura]

Shoemakers & Bateman, costly!

They remind me of some of our players when they are under oressure

[Remi Moses]

Bateman especially. Three kicks in a row he turned over.

How in hell do teams allow Maxwell to still play loose and unaccountable.
He was allowed to go third man up on Franklin. All these coaches and still no plan for the likes of O'Brien and Maxwell to play loose

[LostDoggy]

That was an entertaining game right the way through. Shows how important that week off is. Malthouse all weepy at the end was interesting - sort of.

[BulldogBelle]

Well, they certainly threw that away.

[LostDoggy]

? -- if anything the ump just put his whistle away; Hawks got away with a blatant throw, three high tackles in the last quarter, in the back all over the ground etc.

Gibson being held every time the pies wanted to "Shepard" the goal through, the ball going out on the full before Swan goals, Hodge getting his head ripped off within 25m of goal. All within 10mins of full time?

[LostDoggy]

Gibson being held every time the pies wanted to "Shepard" the goal through, the ball going out on the full before Swan goals, Hodge getting his head ripped off within 25m of goal. All within 10mins of full time?

Wait, so you really think that the umps kicked Swannie's goal from the boundary for him? :)

And there were plenty of high tackles on both sides that were missed -- how about Hawthorn's blatant throw? It was just a bad performance by the umps.

If you want a bad decision that favoured the Pies, it would have to be Tarrant trying to kick it through for a behind and kicking it out instead -- should have been called deliberate (skill errors aren't allowed for), and would have given the Hawks a shot from a tight angle.

[1eyedog]

Shoemakers & Bateman, costly!

Bateman was the turnover king, he looked unsure and old. If I was Hawthorn I would be ropeable over his second half in particular. Young Shoenmakers stood up most of the night I thought.


Gibson being held every time the pies wanted to "Shepard" the goal through, the ball going out on the full before Swan goals, Hodge getting his head ripped off within 25m of goal. All within 10mins of full time?

Hodge milked it and ump called play on, correct call. Hawthorn had plenty of opportunity to put scoreboard pressure on the Pies in the first half and fluffed half a dozen set shots from 25-30 metres out.

Reminded me of the 2008 Prelim.

[bornadog]

I went to this game with a couple of Hawthorn friends, great game to watch live. Still can't believe the Hawks lost. They were really a couple of players down. Roughead and Gillham would have made a big difference.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Puopolo stuffed it on numerous occasions.

Hawks should have won. Reminded me so much of our 2009 prelim.

[Raw Toast]

Glorious game, but the umpiring was shocking both ways - I really hope we're not talking about the umpires at the end of the gf.

My greatest hope however, is another drawn gf - that way both sets of fans have to endure an agonising finish with no resolution to it. And yes, I'm just in this finals series for the misery it can bring whoever loses (plus the enjoyment of great games).

[LostDoggy]

Wait, so you really think that the umps kicked Swannie's goal from the boundary for him? :).

Swan's goal was all class. What I'm saying is he shouldn't have had the opportunity to kick it.

[bornadog]

Glorious game, but the umpiring was shocking both ways - I really hope we're not talking about the umpires at the end of the gf.

My greatest hope however, is another drawn gf - that way both sets of fans have to endure an agonising finish with no resolution to it. And yes, I'm just in this finals series for the misery it can bring whoever loses (plus the enjoyment of great games).

I thought the umpires overall didn't influence the game. They will always make mistakes (as they did), but as a neutral at the game tonight you see things differently. Hawks had lots of chances and just fluffed it.

[Raw Toast]

Puopolo stuffed it on numerous occasions.

Hawks should have won. Reminded me so much of our 2009 prelim.

Puopolo was the most important player on the ground in many ways - game turned on his mistakes and the ball bouncing behind him.

Hawthorn had better opportunities than our 2008 and 2009 prelims, a bit closer to 97 for mine. (And yes, sorry for bringing that back up!)

[AndrewP6]

Sure, Hodge might've milked his free, but that would be paid a free, every other game, every other day of the week. The following 50m penalty was laughable - and they want people to give those clowns more respect?

[Sedat]

Hawks should have won. Reminded me so much of our 2009 prelim.Went to the game and was the first thing I thought at the siren - like us the Dawks literally did everything but get over the line. Mitchell was massive, but ditto Swan 2nd half. Hodge looked a free for all money in real play but I haven't seen the replay. Irrespective, I don't want to hear a peep out of the filth supporters if Selwood gets these frees next week. Bateman had more score involvements for the Pies than any Collingwood player. Week off ultimately helped but Hawthorn should have been out of sight at 3/4 time.

[Raw Toast]

I thought the umpires overall didn't influence the game. They will always make mistakes (as they did), but as a neutral at the game tonight you see things differently. Hawks had lots of chances and just fluffed it.

Yes and no for mine. The umpires were huge in the momentum swings, but didn't clearly favour either team. But so very inconsistent with some horrid calls. Hawks can't blame them but they were still a blight on an excellent game.

[Sedat]

If you want a bad decision that favoured the Pies, it would have to be Tarrant trying to kick it through for a behind and kicking it out instead -- should have been called deliberate (skill errors aren't allowed for), and would have given the Hawks a shot from a tight angle.This is hands down the worst non-decision of an obvious free kick for the entire season. Ball kicked directly towards boundary, not a teammate within sight.

[1eyedog]

Sure, Hodge might've milked his free, but that would be paid a free, every other game, every other day of the week. The following 50m penalty was laughable - and they want people to give those clowns more respect?

Only during the first three quarters. Stuff like that is rarely paid in the last.

[Raw Toast]

This is hands down the worst non-decision of an obvious free kick for the entire season. Ball kicked directly towards boundary, not a teammate within sight.

Yep, though the free against Davis for over the shoulder early on was amazing (hands just went straight in the air).

Umps were on ice, either doing too much or too little - not a composed performance, but rather a sign that they were pretty disconcerted by the pressure of the game (and maybe pressure from above as well).

One moment they put the whistle away (eg Tarrant's kick and the free that should've been paid to Ball, as well as a number of clear frees to the Pies [eg Gibson jumping onto Dawe's shoulders towards the end of the first half]) and then the next moment they are over-reacting like instant holding the balls and the 50 metres...

[AndrewP6]

Only during the first three quarters. Stuff like that is rarely paid in the last.

And therefore, they directly influence the game. It should be paid every time or not at all. The rules don't change after 3 quarter time.

[LostDoggy]

Entertaining game. The pies were lucky to get out of that, Buddys last goal would have made a great, Eddie destroying, match winner.

[Sedat]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/124009/default.aspx

I love ther sheer ruthlessness of Clarkson, especially after such a brave performance from his team. He is not giving the players an out clause because of potentially dodgy umpiring decisions, the loss of criticasl structural players like Roughead and Gilham, or lauding a brave effort that just fell short against a superior opponent. He is prepared to state for the public record that they should have finished the job they started so brilliantly in the first 3 quarters. Check out these ruthless post-match quotes:

"We play a tough, volatile sport. I don't want anything to do with pride or bad luck and all that sort of rubbish that is going to come our way because it was a noble effort."

"We should have won a game of footy and we miss out on a Grand Final because we weren't hard enough and tough enough for long enough."

"Collingwood's rebound rate in the last quarter was the highest it was for the game and that was all because we couldn't retain possession of the ball once we got centre-forward."

"We couldn't mark the ball, we were averaging 25 or 30 marks a quarter for the first three quarters and then only have 11 marks for the whole last quarter that ultimately cost us the game."

"I don't want our players to have a warm, fuzzy feeling about being noble and all that sort of stuff. We set ourselves to win this game and go to a Grand Final and we failed."

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Love listening to Clarkson, a very astute coach who doesn't sugarcoat like a lot of his peers do.

Comes out in the way Hawthorn play, doesn't it? They were amazing for three quarters.

[Remi Moses]

Terrific response from Clarkson, just ensuring that they're not satisfied with a great "Effort"
Hopefully our new coach adopts this attitude.
I remember a famous Sheedy speech after the 83 GF when Hawthorn smashed them.
Got up and blasted the Shit out of the players and officials for accepting "Getting There"
Essendon won the next two GF's

[Topdog]

Puopolo was the most important player on the ground in many ways - game turned on his mistakes and the ball bouncing behind him.
)

He certainly was. Micks move to change Leon who the poo killed to Toovey was just about the turning point.

[The Underdog]

Bateman was the turnover king, he looked unsure and old. If I was Hawthorn I would be ropeable over his second half in particular. Young Shoenmakers stood up most of the night I thought.



To be fair he was considerably worse after the head clash with Thomas and like many of his teammates in the last quarter, looked completely shagged. The week off (which they earned) was the deciding factor in Collingwood winning the game. They only got some space in the last quarter when Hawthorn were too tired to apply the pressure they had for the first 3 quarters.

[mjp]

I thought the umpires overall didn't influence the game. They will always make mistakes (as they did), but as a neutral at the game tonight you see things differently. Hawks had lots of chances and just fluffed it.

I agree with this. Dont miss EASY goals. Dont miss '50-50' goals. Dont miss 30-70 goals. In a low scoring game, you will be replaying them in your dreams. In a low scoring elimination final, you will be replaying them in your dreams for 6 months.

It is tough on Puopolo because he is a kid in his first season, but that shank in the 3rd quarter from a set shot 30m out? No excuse for that...miss, OK. But miss because you clearly haven't got a practised routine?

[mjp]

I love ther sheer ruthlessness of Clarkson, especially after such a brave performance from his team. He is not giving the players an out clause because of potentially dodgy umpiring decisions, the loss of criticasl structural players like Roughead and Gilham, or lauding a brave effort that just fell short against a superior opponent. He is prepared to state for the public record that they should have finished the job they started so brilliantly in the first 3 quarters.

I like it as well - but what we will find out next year is whether or not the players like it. It is all very well saying this stuff to appease the membership base, but I don't like the way he is absolving himself and the coaches of all the blame here. It was very obvious in the last q that Collingwood had cut off Hawthorn across half-forward - the behind the footy vision was showing how few targets there were available - yet they persisted with Gibson loose behind the ball. I am watching it again now - what Clarkson was complaining about (lack of marks in last q) he contributed too...who is there to mark the thing?

The Hawthorn coaches needed to have someone presenting up to the kicker from the half forward line - they were purely dependent on mids running back towards goal and they were either too tired or just didn't want to do it anymore. The Toovey to Puopolo thing was good for Collingwood - were was the Hawthorn reaction?

Still watching the replay - Rioli run down by Thomas in the last minute? Well, who was he going to kick it too? I call bad coaching - the Hawthorn effort was enormous, but the team structure in the last q was poor and didn't allow them to succeed.

[mjp]

Lewis is slow and his kicking is dubious. But he is just so desperate around contested footy...

[Topdog]

I agree with this. Dont miss EASY goals. Dont miss '50-50' goals. Dont miss 30-70 goals. In a low scoring game, you will be replaying them in your dreams. In a low scoring elimination final, you will be replaying them in your dreams for 6 months.

It is tough on Puopolo because he is a kid in his first season, but that shank in the 3rd quarter from a set shot 30m out? No excuse for that...miss, OK. But miss because you clearly haven't got a practised routine?

Yep they missed so many from 30m on a slight angle. Hodge in the 3rd and then Puopolo from the same spot were both shockers. Then Mitchell gets a go from the same spot and drills it.

[Ghost Dog]

I like it as well - but what we will find out next year is whether or not the players like it. It is all very well saying this stuff to appease the membership base, but I don't like the way he is absolving himself and the coaches of all the blame here. It was very obvious in the last q that Collingwood had cut off Hawthorn across half-forward - the behind the footy vision was showing how few targets there were available - yet they persisted with Gibson loose behind the ball. I am watching it again now - what Clarkson was complaining about (lack of marks in last q) he contributed too...who is there to mark the thing?

The Hawthorn coaches needed to have someone presenting up to the kicker from the half forward line - they were purely dependent on mids running back towards goal and they were either too tired or just didn't want to do it anymore. The Toovey to Puopolo thing was good for Collingwood - were was the Hawthorn reaction?

^^This

[Maddog37]

Lewis is slow and his kicking is dubious. But he is just so desperate around contested footy...

Daniel Cross like?

I actually loved the way the umpires adjudicated in the last term. I wish that was the norm.

[1eyedog]

Daniel Cross like?

I actually loved the way the umpires adjudicated in the last term. I wish that was the norm.

More natural talent than Cross IMO. I like Lewis.

[Sedat]

I like it as well - but what we will find out next year is whether or not the players like it. It is all very well saying this stuff to appease the membership base, but I don't like the way he is absolving himself and the coaches of all the blame here. It was very obvious in the last q that Collingwood had cut off Hawthorn across half-forward - the behind the footy vision was showing how few targets there were available - yet they persisted with Gibson loose behind the ball. I am watching it again now - what Clarkson was complaining about (lack of marks in last q) he contributed too...who is there to mark the thing?

The Hawthorn coaches needed to have someone presenting up to the kicker from the half forward line - they were purely dependent on mids running back towards goal and they were either too tired or just didn't want to do it anymore. The Toovey to Puopolo thing was good for Collingwood - were was the Hawthorn reaction?

Still watching the replay - Rioli run down by Thomas in the last minute? Well, who was he going to kick it too? I call bad coaching - the Hawthorn effort was enormous, but the team structure in the last q was poor and didn't allow them to succeed.
Would you say the same thing about Rocket and the Dogs structure in the last qtr of the 2009 PF? What structures you put in place during the week and what the players execute on the day (especially late when fatigue sets in) can differ. I agree with your observations by the way - Hawthorn's structure broke down badly in the last qtr with the forward line being sucked upfield. But was this players not playing to instructon or the structure being flawed to begin with? Bit of both probably.

I heard the Clarkson presser this morning. His words in print were black and white but the spoken version couldn't disguise the hurt he was feeling and the pride he had in his team's effort. And I am sure he will make an abusive phone call to Gieschen during the week. But to his eternal credit he is refusing to make any public utterances pointing to excuses/reasons for not winning. Whether it was players not following instructions or flat-out fatigue setting in, or the coaches not structuring up properly in the last qtr, Hawthorn (like us in 2009) were unable to finish off the job they so brilliantly orchestrated against a superior opponent for the vast majority of the game. Collingwood (like St Kilda in 2009) were never going to be subdued for 120 minutes.

[LostDoggy]

I didn't see any of the game. My father said Felicity was getting 'excited' with the fist pumps while Jeff looked worried. Maybe he still got a 'win' last night?

[1eyedog]

I didn't see any of the game. My father said Felicity was getting 'excited' with the fist pumps while Jeff looked worried. Maybe he still got a 'win' last night?

I doubt it, Felicity had spent all her cookies by the 20 min mark of the third. It was Buddy, not Jeff who sent her (as well as Bruce for that matter) over the edge with 5 mins left to go in the last.

[comrade]

Felicity had spent all her cookies

This made me giggle.

[Sockeye Salmon]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/124009/default.aspx

I love ther sheer ruthlessness of Clarkson, especially after such a brave performance from his team. He is not giving the players an out clause because of potentially dodgy umpiring decisions, the loss of criticasl structural players like Roughead and Gilham, or lauding a brave effort that just fell short against a superior opponent. He is prepared to state for the public record that they should have finished the job they started so brilliantly in the first 3 quarters. Check out these ruthless post-match quotes:

"We play a tough, volatile sport. I don't want anything to do with pride or bad luck and all that sort of rubbish that is going to come our way because it was a noble effort."

"We should have won a game of footy and we miss out on a Grand Final because we weren't hard enough and tough enough for long enough."

"Collingwood's rebound rate in the last quarter was the highest it was for the game and that was all because we couldn't retain possession of the ball once we got centre-forward."

"We couldn't mark the ball, we were averaging 25 or 30 marks a quarter for the first three quarters and then only have 11 marks for the whole last quarter that ultimately cost us the game."

"I don't want our players to have a warm, fuzzy feeling about being noble and all that sort of stuff. We set ourselves to win this game and go to a Grand Final and we failed."

It's all rhetoric. Doesn't make the slightest difference.

[chef]

Shoemakers & Bateman, costly!

How he got back into the side in front of Bruest is puzzling:confused:

[comrade]

How he got back into the side in front of Bruest is puzzling:confused:

And Savage? Unless Savage is injured.

[jazzadogs]

Very disappointing to see Stevey J go down like that. Commentators have just said they don't think its ACL, but I can't see him playing next week.

There's got to be some damage in the knee when it bends like that. Plenty of other things can happen to a knee that might not rule him out for a year, but will rule someone out for a few weeks.

[Remi Moses]

This made me giggle.

Wasn't she the number one ticket holder at Geekong?
Kennett looks like he'd eaten some of those schools he closed down.

[Remi Moses]

West Coast looked gassed from early on,Cats played like millionaires in the second.
Four GF's in 5 years is one great effort, I still reckon the Pies just.
Great effort from the Eagles coming from last,but no doubt Woosha being as ruthless as he is won 't be satisfied.

[bornadog]

How he got back into the side in front of Bruest is puzzling:confused:

I said to my mate I couldn't believe Breust wasn't playing. I thought he was one of the best first year players I have see this year.

[FrediKanoute]

Hawthorn 2011.....shades of 1997. Hard loss to swallow

[The Coon Dog]

What a contrast between the Preliminary Finals. The Coll/Haw game was tight, unrelenting & the pressure was there from woe to go, whereas today's Geel/WCE clash seemed devoid of atmosphere & was a forgone conclusion from early on.

[immortalmike]

What a contrast between the Preliminary Finals. The Coll/Haw game was tight, unrelenting & the pressure was there from woe to go, whereas today's Geel/WCE clash seemed devoid of atmosphere & was a forgone conclusion from early on.

The question is which is better preparation for a Grand Final. Does last night's game take its toll on an already tired Pies outfit or will it just battle harden them. Conversely, does the easy win lull Geelong into a false sense of adequacy or will it keep them fresh for the shorter break. Interesting times...Go Cats..I guess.

[dog town]

I like it as well - but what we will find out next year is whether or not the players like it. It is all very well saying this stuff to appease the membership base, but I don't like the way he is absolving himself and the coaches of all the blame here. It was very obvious in the last q that Collingwood had cut off Hawthorn across half-forward - the behind the footy vision was showing how few targets there were available - yet they persisted with Gibson loose behind the ball. I am watching it again now - what Clarkson was complaining about (lack of marks in last q) he contributed too...who is there to mark the thing?

The Hawthorn coaches needed to have someone presenting up to the kicker from the half forward line - they were purely dependent on mids running back towards goal and they were either too tired or just didn't want to do it anymore. The Toovey to Puopolo thing was good for Collingwood - were was the Hawthorn reaction?

Still watching the replay - Rioli run down by Thomas in the last minute? Well, who was he going to kick it too? I call bad coaching - the Hawthorn effort was enormous, but the team structure in the last q was poor and didn't allow them to succeed. Absolutely right. I was at the game. They lost all sense of structure in the last quarter and a bit. Basically it was either find a short pass immediately or kick and hope that you win a 2 on 5 or 3 on 6.

Went to both games this weekend and other observations I made

West Coasts ultra tall forward structure back fired badly. It wasn't the main area they were beaten in but it made it hard for them to capitalise when they did get some control. Dean Cox spent an enormous amount of time in the goal square with big Q close by. Not going to happen against the cats. Kennedy barely in a one out with his opponent all day and when he did he was dangerous. They couldn't abandon what had worked all year I just thought it made it tough for them.

Beau Waters runs his own race a little bit in terms of accountability at times but geez he had a crack. Tough as they come.

I really couldn't stand Jordan Lewis until recently. I always thought he was all bark and no bite. Backing up his image in the last month with some of the toughest footy I have seen. Using the ball fairly cleverly as well. Much better player than I thought.

Hawthorn have a couple of media darlings that seem to be the first highlighted when Hawthorn do well but never criticised when they dont. I actually thought Rioli was very influential on Friday night but some of his party tricks in the last quarter at crucial stages really cost Hawthorn. Had some very ordinary efforts in big games recently and is rarely called on them. Ditto Luke Hodge. Bit of the Nick Reiwoldt syndrome with Hodge. If people say they are big game players often enough perception becomes reality. Both damn good players but I feel they escape criticism where others wouldn't.

I find the harsh reality of watching some players getting horribly exposed and others thriving in preliminary finals is a good model for our recruiting department to go off. Friday night was similar to our 2009 final and was basically combat for 4 quarters. We need a mix of runners, talls etc that much is obvious but if they cant or wont be capable of standing up in that sort of slug fest then we shouldn't pick them. Tough call (almost impossible) to make on a 17/18 year old but thats the calls they need to make.

Geelong completely owned West Coast at the kick ins. Geelong waltzed through West Coasts zone and in comparison West Coast didnt look like penetrating Geelongs 15 man zone. Will be interesting to see the comparison when they play Collingwood.

Stevey J will battle to get up. I have dislocated my knee a good 10-15 times. If it comes right out and doesnt just slide in and out quickly then you are in trouble. They will jab him up but his lateral movement will be shot. With Menzel out already that is a big problem for Geelong.

Travis Cloke confirmed his transition from really good player to star. Most important player on the ground by a mile even with Swan playing so well. Just drew the ball to him at crucial moments and kept presenting.

Hawthorn need a key defender and a ruckmen. Didnt get exposed in the ruck this week but its only a matter of time.

Hawks played Davis really well. Made sure if he got the ball it was deep and with no real option to damage. Rarely broke a line or switched the play. Puopolo drew the footy at important moments as well. Davis to his credit had an impact forward in the last.

Hawks refused to release the ball long against the press. Happy to take the risk of turning over a short kick. Is this the new tactic for next year? The hawks chipped and played a kicking game all year and everyone questioned whether it would be exposed under finals pressure and a heavy press. They persisted with it on Friday night and while they lost the game you could argue the game plan was pretty effective. By kicking short you run the risk of a turnover but that turnover will be in heavy congestion and you have the chance of winning it back. I ask you which is worse the short pass turnover (with your fellow team members anticipating the short kick) or the long hurried kick that clears your area but is invariably to a 2 on 1 or 3 on 2? I actually dont have an opinion I just found it a really interesting game to watch from that point of view. If the short kicking becomes the new craze then do teams go back to one on one to beat it?

Will Malthouse stick with his ruthless selection policies of the past and pick Cam Wood over Jolley? Jolley is clearly injured and struggled against poor quality opponents on Friday. As good as Jolley has been I would argue that Wood is a safer bet.

[bornadog]

Good post Dogtown, enjoyed your assessment and fully agree with all you said. Listening to McCartney discussing Friday's game he said that this is the future of footy and expect more of this type of play, ie hard contested football.

It will be interesting to see what style of play and game plan we will have next year.

[Maddog37]

I have not seen Cats game but my main theme from the Hawks match is the you don't make grand finals with two North Melbourne trade offs holding key posts. Hale and Gibson tried hard but let the team down at the crunch.

[mjp]

I have not seen Cats game but my main theme from the Hawks match is the you don't make grand finals with two North Melbourne trade offs holding key posts. Hale and Gibson tried hard but let the team down at the crunch.

Simplistic. They lost by three points and it wasn't Gibson or Hale who cost them. Gibson was outstanding in fact.

[Maddog37]

No doubt it is simplistic but they lack class/size and had 8 clangers between them. Next year if the Hawks get Ruff and Gilham back fit and firing and Savage and Bruest step up they will be very good again.

[1eyedog]

No doubt it is simplistic but they lack class/size and had 8 clangers between them. Next year if the Hawks get Ruff and Gilham back fit and firing and Savage and Bruest step up they will be very good again.

Bateman's two turnovers in the last quarter, one in the middle of the ground the other on the outer wing led to Collingwood's two last goals, one to Swan and one to Ball. It could be argued that he was the difference for all the wrong reasons.

[Maddog37]

Bateman's two turnovers in the last quarter, one in the middle of the ground the other on the outer wing led to Collingwood's two last goals, one to Swan and one to Ball. It could be argued that he was the difference for all the wrong reasons.

Looks cooked does young Chance.

[Topdog]

Simplistic. They lost by three points and it wasn't Gibson or Hale who cost them. Gibson was outstanding in fact.

Agree it's way too simplistic but I thought Gibson was poor

[Mantis]

Looks cooked does young Chance.

He has been cooked since the 2008 GF and he ain't all that young.