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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Happy Days
What he's worth has nothing to do with it. It's another example of the club holding all the cards and then caving to meet the demands of the other party for no reason other than to play nice.
Or we keep a disgruntled player who can't get on the park for another year before doing the same dance again next year.
Some losses are worth wearing.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Bevo said there will be a lot of change next year.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LostDog
Yep I agree hate to say it and be negative but bottom 3 next year, and feel the rot of losing will upset some players looking elsewhere or be poached by the hawthorns of the league
Sam Power rating F
That is the issue we have in the current AFL landscape. Sure bring in kids and develop, the other section of the list needs to feel like there is direction or they'll walk, but we'll get more picks and more kids if they go. Rinse and repeat.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
We didn't lose a best 22 player IMO
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
OK. I've had several seconds to think about it.
And I posted something recently about my predictions/hopes so I'll stand by that.
Dalhaus out. good for list balance. Compensation? a little under, but not criminal.
Adams out? good for list balance. Compensation? a little under, but not utterly criminal.
Roughead out? This I really don't understand. for pick 75? I just think we're a better club, team, and place with Roughy around.
This is me seriously questioning Beveridge's judgement. For the first time openly and publicly. I think this is wrong.
Missing out on Wingard, May and whoever else we may have been linked to? I don't care.
I'm happy to go to the draft with pick 7, and my prediction is that we will never regret it.
Hawks paid over for Wingard in the end.
Melbourne got a SWEET deal to get May and Kolij.......etc. But we really didn't need those types.
So............ really a very bland experience overall, but..........not the disaster some people are calling it.
And........on Marcus Adams, if you recorded the last game in Ballarat dogs v power, you might suddenly cheer up a bit about that trade.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Still trying to confirm where the future 3rd for Adams is coming from.
Seems to be some mixed messages.
Afl.com has the following quoted
Quote:
DEFENDER Marcus Adams has received his wish to be traded from the Western Bulldogs to Brisbane.
The Lions gave up No.32 in this year's NAB AFL Draft, as well as a third-round selection for 2019, which is tied to Gold Coast.
Others here are mentioning it's tied to Hawthorn's.
If it's the former then we've done very well out of this.
Can anyone confirm either way ?
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dancin' Douggy
Roughead for pick 75 is so depressing, so deflating and just so so sad.
A Premiership Ruckman, quality person and a WB supporter all his life. Is it any wonder that Collingwood finished second and we struggled badly. Good luck to Jordan Roughead. I will always remember his courageous GF display after a serious eye injury in the Prelim final in 2016.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
From what I can tell, Brisbane had 3 Round 3 picks in the 2019 draft; their own, one from Fremantle and one from Hawthorn that came to them via Gold Coast. It's certainly been confusing but I don't think they have a Rd 3 2019 pick that's tied to GC itself, so I think it's the one that's tied to Hawthorn but was traded in from GC.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/ne...in-adams-trade
Our website does nothing to confirm which 2019 Rd 3 pick it was but the Brisbane one
http://www.lions.com.au/news/2018-10-17/adams-joins
has this section
Quote:
Adams comes to the Lions after three years and 27 AFL games at the Western Bulldogs. The Bulldogs received Pick No. 32 and a future third-round selection (on traded from Hawthorn) in exchange for Adams
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
divvydan
From what I can tell, Brisbane had 3 Round 3 picks in the 2019 draft; their own, one from Fremantle and one from Hawthorn that came to them via Gold Coast. It's certainly been confusing but I don't think they have a Rd 3 2019 pick that's tied to GC itself, so I think it's the one that's tied to Hawthorn but was traded in from GC.
Pretty sure you are right. Gold Coast got the pick from Hawthorn for Scrimshaw, they then traded it to Brisbane in a pick swap.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Happy Days
What he's worth has nothing to do with it. It's another example of the club holding all the cards and then caving to meet the demands of the other party for no reason other than to play nice.
We were never doing better than that if you think we were your kidding yourself. Perpetually injured, didn't want be be here and as many on field deficiencies as he has positives. Pick 32 was what was going to happen all along.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
1eyedog
We were never doing better than that if you think we were your kidding yourself. Perpetually injured, didn't want be be here and as many on field deficiencies as he has positives. Pick 32 was what was going to happen all along.
Absolutely agree.
Why would we think holding Adams to his contract was ever a realistic option given this isn't the first time he's expressed a desire to leave the club, and that holding players to contracts is barely the done thing in the AFL these days?
Sure, in theory we held all the cards and could have held out for what we wanted, but that wasn't going to be a practical or likely outcome. Perhaps in years gone by that may have been an option for us, but the landscape has changed and players all but get what they want and there's little clubs can do about it.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
In: Taylor Duryea, Sam Lloyd, picks 27, 32, 75, 2019 third-round Pick with Billy Gowers and Brad Lynch moving to the senior list.
Out: Marcus Adams, Shane Biggs, Luke Dahlhaus, Nathan Mullenger-McHugh, Jack Redpath, Jordan Roughead, Clay Smith, Pick 64, 2019 fourth-round Pick
In Doubt: Tom Liberatore, Mitch Honeychurch and Tom Campbell. Liberatore will sign soon and with Roughead leaving Campbell now looks safe.
2018 draft picks: 7, 27, 32, 45, 63, 75, 82 The highlighted unlikely to be used
Missed: We put a great offer forward for Wingard but fell short plus we don't appear to have acquired enough draft points
What's next? - The draft is our big focus. Pick 7 will net us a quality player and we will certainly add father/son pick Rhylee West although it could cost us a lot in terms of our draft position. Buku Khamis is also a strong chance to be headed to the Kennel
The dilemma for us: Draft points we simply don't have enough to cover early bids for both West and Khamis.
The way I understand it if there is a bid on West at say pick 16 and we decide to match it this year then it will swallow up pick 27 and move our pick 32 to pick 40. Then if a bid comes in the early 30's for Khamis then our pick 40 (32) and 45 will be needed.
You can see now why Power was so keen to get more for Adams or something better for Roughead.
I think we will need to go into a deficit for 2019 so that we can address our needs this year. It's not ideal but this is a strong draft and we might have to take that approach.
It will be fascinating lead into the draft for us.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
I think the Roughead deal was for the best interest of the player. True bulldogs person and premiership player. We were nice enough to let him try for a better career move and he got it. We did alright out of trade week. A small upgrade in disposal is still and upgrade.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GVGjr
What's next? - The draft is our big focus. Pick 7 will net us a quality player and we will certainly add father/son pick Rhylee West although it could cost us a lot in terms of our draft position. Buku Khamis is also a strong chance to be headed to the Kennel
The dilemma for us: Draft points we simply don't have enough to cover early bids for both West and Khamis.
The way I understand it if there is a bid on West at say pick 16 and we decide to match it this year then it will swallow up pick 27 and move our pick 32 to pick 40. Then if a bid comes in the early 30's for Khamis then our pick 40 (32) and 45 will be needed.
You can see now why Power was so keen to get more for Adams or something better for Roughead.
I think we will need to go into a deficit for 2019 so that we can address our needs this year. It's not ideal but this is a strong draft and we might have to take that approach.
It will be fascinating lead into the draft for us.
Be interesting to see what we do with those picks between now and when we use them. Wouldn’t be surprised if we’re waiting to see where Rhylee west gets nominated before deciding what to do. If it’s higher than expected then I think we’ll go hard with 27 and 32 to downgrade pecking order but amassing more points. New dynamic this year w picks and points.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GVGjr
In Doubt: Tom Liberatore, Mitch Honeychurch and Tom Campbell. Liberatore will sign soon and with Roughead leaving Campbell now looks safe.
2018 draft picks: 7, 27, 32, 45, 63, 75, 82 The highlighted unlikely to be used
What's next? - The draft is our big focus. Pick 7 will net us a quality player and we will certainly add father/son pick Rhylee West although it could cost us a lot in terms of our draft position. Buku Khamis is also a strong chance to be headed to the Kennel
What we do with rookies; Gowers, Lynch & R.Smith will be interesting.
We currently have 5 spots on the list to fill and this will increase if we don't sign any of Libba, Honey & Campbell.
I would think that Gowers & Lynch would be certainties for an upgrade to the main list.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
So Honeychurch, Campbell and Webb are still on the list. hmmmmm.
how long do we have to make a decision on them?
I know Sam Power indicated we'd be keeping Campbell.
What about the other two?
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Doctor
What we do with rookies; Gowers, Lynch & R.Smith will be interesting.
We currently have 5 spots on the list to fill and this will increase if we don't sign any of Libba, Honey & Campbell.
I would think that Gowers & Lynch would be certainties for an upgrade to the main list.
It's fortunate that we have 3 rookie listed players all potential upgrades. I have some doubts on Smith but Gowers certainly and Lynch probably deserves promotions.
Doc, I'd be interested in getting your thoughts about how we managed the challenges of adding Rhylee West and Buku Khamis?
I'm almost of the opinion that going into deficit next year could be the best approach
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
I listened a bit earlier to Michael Barlow on RSN and given the age profile of our list would it be worth bringing him in on a rookie list for a year? I think he could be a great mentor for a younger player like Lynch or one of our draftees. For Barlow it would be a nice transitional year for him with potentially moving into a coaching role at Footscray in the future.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Today's the start of the period when we find out which players clubs were hopeful that they could trade out but no one else wanted them...
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Throughandthrough
Today's the start of the period when we find out which players clubs were hopeful that they could trade out but no one else wanted them...
Looking at what we have picked up and what’s on offer in the draft , I see honeychurch the one in the gun.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LostDog
Yep I agree hate to say it and be negative but bottom 3 next year, and feel the rot of losing will upset some players looking elsewhere or be poached by the hawthorns of the league
Sam Power rating F
Why won't we beat GC, St.Kilda & Carlton?
Yeh of little faith.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GVGjr
I listened a bit earlier to Michael Barlow on RSN and given the age profile of our list would it be worth bringing him in on a rookie list for a year? I think he could be a great mentor for a younger player like Lynch or one of our draftees. For Barlow it would be a nice transitional year for him with potentially moving into a coaching role at Footscray in the future.
Not for me.
He's a slow mid who doesn't address any of our weaknesses and wouldn't get a game in our midfield anyway.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Bulldogs Bite
Not for me.
He's a slow mid who doesn't address any of our weaknesses and wouldn't get a game in our midfield anyway.
I get that but it's just a rookie spot and he could play if there were injuries. If we acknowledge that we have a young list I could see someone like him being a positive around those younger players.
I have some concerns our culture isn't the greatest and right now players with a positive attitude might be needed to assist in resetting our focus.
It certainly doesn't have to be Barlow but I'd be all for an experienced player with the right approach getting a rookie spot.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GVGjr
I get that but it's just a rookie spot and he could play if there were injuries. If we acknowledge that we have a young list I could see someone like him being a positive around those younger players.
I have some concerns our culture isn't the greatest and right now players with a positive attitude might be needed to assist in resetting our focus.
It certainly doesn't have to be Barlow but I'd be all for an experienced player with the right approach getting a rookie spot.
Sorry GVG, I overlooked 'rookie' list. I wrongly assumed you meant the main list.
If the club has concerns with our culture and Barlow is a positive, constructive influence then it might be worth a shot. If he isn't somebody who can develop into a coaching role, then I would probably look elsewhere.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Barlow seems to be a quality bloke and would be good in a mentoring role. Heard somewhere over here that he is looking at WAFL Club Perth.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Bulldogs Bite
Sorry GVG, I overlooked 'rookie' list. I wrongly assumed you meant the main list.
If the club has concerns with our culture and Barlow is a positive, constructive influence then it might be worth a shot. If he isn't somebody who can develop into a coaching role, then I would probably look elsewhere.
What appeals to me is that despite him not getting much of a go in his last year at the suns he apparently never dropped his head. A lot of players now would just say bugger it but he pushed through. I'm sure we could find others like him but it's that type of player that appeals to me as a rookie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
westbulldog
Barlow seems to be a quality bloke and would be good in a mentoring role. Heard somewhere over here that he is looking at WAFL Club Perth.
I think he mentioned he could be doing something at Werribee but I may have got that wrong.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GVGjr
It's fortunate that we have 3 rookie listed players all potential upgrades. I have some doubts on Smith but Gowers certainly and Lynch probably deserves promotions.
Doc, I'd be interested in getting your thoughts about how we managed the challenges of adding Rhylee West and Buku Khamis?
I'm almost of the opinion that going into deficit next year could be the best approach
If West costs us nothing more than pick 27 that is a win in my view. Same with Khamis with pick 45.
It could come down to where the bids come in and how we rate other player options. if Khamis is bid on in the 20's we may have a difficult decision to make as to whether we match the bid. I think we will have enough draft points without the need to go into deficit.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Doctor
If West costs us nothing more than pick 27 that is a win in my view. Same with Khamis with pick 45.
It could come down to where the bids come in and how we rate other player options. if Khamis is bid on in the 20's we may have a difficult decision to make as to whether we match the bid. I think we will have enough draft points without the need to go into deficit.
Yep. Would be delighted if we could use pick 7 and 32 on new players.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Anyone else getting the bad feeling Honeychurch is headed to the rookie list. Since Bevo has come across:
2014: Pearce (delisted, rookie listed, poor result), Bevo brought in Kelly when leaving Hawthorn (rookie listed, poor result)
2015: No delisting to rookie list. Bevo brought in Adcock on the rookie list, vanilla result.
2016: Prudden (delisted, rookie listed, poor result)
2017: Smith (delisted, rookie listed, result TBA not one I see as great longer term)
2018: .......
We make the tough calls on fringe players, but then put them onto the rookie list. We've done it historically with Goodes & Hahn also, but since Bevo joined he takes this personal loyalty thing very seriously. Which in and of itself isn't a bad thing at all. But our track record of delisting and then rookie listing players is not good in outcome. It's become almost an annual thing since Bevo joined after Shocktober (Episode 1). I'd think if we are delisting players we should just stick with it and not bringing them back at a lower level list spot. But with no straight delisting announcement on Honeychurch to date, I get this sick feeling we will be etching his name into this board at Whitten Oval. I'd rather look at raw kids or state league players and see if they can make it, versus a guy who tries his guts out, but will never ever make it. I hope I'm wrong, but I sense there's another loyalty rookie listing of a (respectfully) sub standard delisted player.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GVGjr
Doc, I'd be interested in getting your thoughts about how we managed the challenges of adding Rhylee West and Buku Khamis?
I'm almost of the opinion that going into deficit next year could be the best approach
It's either match the bids or don't, right? It's not like you can say "Yeah we'll match on Khamis but we're keeping pick 45, we'll pay for him next year". Deficit is only when you're out of points value picks
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bulldogtragic
Anyone else getting the bad feeling Honeychurch is headed to the rookie list. Since Bevo has come across:
2014: Pearce (delisted, rookie listed, poor result), Bevo brought in Kelly when leaving Hawthorn (rookie listed, poor result)
2015: No delisting to rookie list. Bevo brought in Adcock on the rookie list, vanilla result.
2016: Prudden (delisted, rookie listed, poor result)
2017: Smith (delisted, rookie listed, result TBA not one I see as great longer term)
2018: .......
We make the tough calls on fringe players, but then put them onto the rookie list. We've done it historically with Goodes & Hahn also, but since Bevo joined he takes this personal loyalty thing very seriously. Which in and of itself isn't a bad thing at all. But our track record of delisting and then rookie listing players is not good in outcome. It's become almost an annual thing since Bevo joined after Shocktober (Episode 1). I'd think if we are delisting players we should just stick with it and not bringing them back at a lower level list spot. But with no straight delisting announcement on Honeychurch to date, I get this sick feeling we will be etching his name into this board at Whitten Oval. I'd rather look at raw kids or state league players and see if they can make it, versus a guy who tries his guts out, but will never ever make it. I hope I'm wrong, but I sense there's another loyalty rookie listing of a (respectfully) sub standard delisted player.
I don't think he will but you never know. He's had his chances and hasn't quite nailed it. If he kicked a few of those goals instead of missing it would have been a harder argument but it would be a mistake to maintain him even as a rookie
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bulldogtragic
Anyone else getting the bad feeling Honeychurch is headed to the rookie list. Since Bevo has come across:
2014: Pearce (delisted, rookie listed, poor result), Bevo brought in Kelly when leaving Hawthorn (rookie listed, poor result)
2015: No delisting to rookie list. Bevo brought in Adcock on the rookie list, vanilla result.
2016: Prudden (delisted, rookie listed, poor result)
2017: Smith (delisted, rookie listed, result TBA not one I see as great longer term)
2018: .......
We make the tough calls on fringe players, but then put them onto the rookie list. We've done it historically with Goodes & Hahn also, but since Bevo joined he takes this personal loyalty thing very seriously. Which in and of itself isn't a bad thing at all. But our track record of delisting and then rookie listing players is not good in outcome. It's become almost an annual thing since Bevo joined after Shocktober (Episode 1). I'd think if we are delisting players we should just stick with it and not bringing them back at a lower level list spot. But with no straight delisting announcement on Honeychurch to date, I get this sick feeling we will be etching his name into this board at Whitten Oval. I'd rather look at raw kids or state league players and see if they can make it, versus a guy who tries his guts out, but will never ever make it. I hope I'm wrong, but I sense there's another loyalty rookie listing of a (respectfully) sub standard delisted player.
If we were to do that I'd do it with Porter. Honey has had enough chances.
We currently have 5 spots on our list available. Sending Porter to the rookie list will give us an extra pick in the draft. Delisting Honey would make it 7 picks. I would upgrade Gowers and Lynch which brings it back to 5 again on the main list & 2 spots on the rookie list.
We still have Libba & Campbell uncontracted. The vibe is they will be re-contracted.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Doctor
If we were to do that I'd do it with Porter. Honey has had enough chances.
We currently have 5 spots on our list available. Sending Porter to the rookie list will give us an extra pick in the draft. Delisting Honey would make it 7 picks. I would upgrade Gowers and Lynch which brings it back to 5 again on the main list & 2 spots on the rookie list.
We still have Libba & Campbell uncontracted. The vibe is they will be re-contracted.
Isn't Porter coming to the end of his first year? Not sure it's even an option.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Doctor
If we were to do that I'd do it with Porter. Honey has had enough chances.
We currently have 5 spots on our list available. Sending Porter to the rookie list will give us an extra pick in the draft. Delisting Honey would make it 7 picks. I would upgrade Gowers and Lynch which brings it back to 5 again on the main list & 2 spots on the rookie list.
We still have Libba & Campbell uncontracted. The vibe is they will be re-contracted.
Doc are you sure we currently have 5 spots on the list? I mentioned the other day that we had 33 senior listed players from last year plus we have had 2 additions via trades and two upgrades from the rookie list. That should give us a playing list of 37 players and therefore 5 live picks but I think there is a school of thought that we only have 4 picks at the draft.
When you look at the outs from last year, Adams, Biggs, Collins, Dahlhaus, Redpath, Roughead and C.Smith that is only 7 spots but 8 if you assume Honeychurch is gone.
Add Gowers, Lynch, Lloyd and Duryea and we are back to 4 spots
I'm sure I've missed something but I'm not sure what that is
By the way, Webb might be the better candidate to move to the rookie list depending on how bad his injury is
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GVGjr
By the way, Webb might be the better candidate to move to the rookie list depending on how bad his injury is
Depending on his condition, I would hope we can delist him and pay his contract out 100% outside the cap. However the welfare of the player comes paramount, so if he can recover and it is better for his welfare to be around the club then the above doesn't happen.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GVGjr
Doc are you sure we currently have 5 spots on the list? I mentioned the other day that we had 33 senior listed players from last year plus we have had 2 additions via trades and two upgrades from the rookie list. That should give us a playing list of 37 players and therefore 5 live picks but I think there is a school of thought that we only have 4 picks at the draft.
When you look at the outs from last year, Adams, Biggs, Collins, Dahlhaus, Redpath, Roughead and C.Smith that is only 7 spots but 8 if you assume Honeychurch is gone.
Add Gowers, Lynch, Lloyd and Duryea and we are back to 4 spots
I'm sure I've missed something but I'm not sure what that is
By the way, Webb might be the better candidate to move to the rookie list depending on how bad his injury is
Gowers and Lynch (on my understanding) are not additions to the main list UNTIL upgraded at the draft. These keeps their spots available to use the picks for points for West/Khamis.
We can delist any other player including Porter to create a list spot, even if we wish to retain them.
If they are contracted and we do not redraft we would need to pay out the contract.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Even if it is an option to send Porter to the rookie list it shouldn't happen unless he has done something wrong. It would send a terrible message to drop a draftee to the rookie list after 1 season, he deserves his 2 years.
I agree with your list maths GVGjr.
We will find out what we are doing in the next week I guess.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bulldog Joe
Gowers and Lynch (on my understanding) are not additions to the main list UNTIL upgraded at the draft. These keeps their spots available to use the picks for points for West/Khamis.
We can delist any other player including Porter to create a list spot, even if we wish to retain them.
If they are contracted and we do not redraft we would need to pay out the contract.
Rookie elevations haven't taken place in the draft for a number of years. They occur prior to the draft. I'm not entirely sure of the required timing but I would generally expect them to take place by list lodgement 1 at the end of October.
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Re: The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Axe Man
Even if it is an option to send Porter to the rookie list it shouldn't happen unless he has done something wrong. It would send a terrible message to drop a draftee to the rookie list after 1 season, he deserves his 2 years.
I agree with your list maths GVGjr.
We will find out what we are doing in the next week I guess.
Which part? :) Do we currently have 4 or 5 spots available?