Western Bulldogs V Essendon - Pre-Season 15/2/25 Whitten Oval 2.00pm

[Rusty12]

Ruck Contest specialist not tap specialist. Did you watch the last GF or our last 6 finals losses? Darcy Fort is a VFL ruck that won a premiership.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

[Rusty12]

You'll find throughout the course of the season it's more of a vibe thing........

I actually say that tongue in cheek. But you will find out there's some pretty strong feelings about the effectiveness of rucks or otherwise depending on what they deliver and how you view ruck traits.

I am also learning there is an unhealthy dislike for Tim, which is distorting peoples views on ruckman and will dig for any stat, to support that already formed view.

Crossley had a few nice moments, but the Tim haters seem to be immune to how many times the Dons exited straight out the front to.

[jeemak]

I am also learning there is an unhealthy dislike for Tim, which is distorting peoples views on ruckman and will dig for any stat, to support that already formed view.

Crossley had a few nice moments, but the Tim haters seem to be immune to how many times the Dons exited straight out the front to.

Some of it's unhealthy, but there's also a fair amount of fair criticism of Tim's performances in big games in recent times. Some of the criticism in the early days didn't really stack up for mine, like when he went up against Ryder and Marshal in a final etc. when it wasn't really on him per se, rather, the MC let him down by having him carry the responsibility before he was ready to.

Then there's the myth that he was hidden in the semi vs. Brisbane.......and the fault levelled at him disproportionately when Jackson came into the game in the 2021 GF where our mids really shat the bed.

Honestly, most of it's OK, but what's most notable is the disparity in opinions between expectations of a ruck at the contest and how it's either taken advantage of or mitigated against. Best just to roll with it as it's a divide that won't ever be reconciled. And that's the beauty of a forum like this. Get on with it.

[dishlickers987]

It makes me wonder how much Tim re-signing towards the end of last year might have factored into this move to get a bash and crash ruckman into the club. Now that he is signed up for 5 years does the match committee feel more comfortable throwing him around the field without the threat of losing him to go back to WA.

[Bornadog]

So what he got better stats. That contested predicted to be a reason why the swans would win. A multiple AA ruck against VFL ruck. Fort held his own and many analysts thought the same.

Grundy also had 18 contested Poss to 6.

The rucks don't win you the game - that is why the top coaches don't care about Hitouts, they want a ruck that plays around the ground and who is not useless for most of the game. It is rare to get a Gawn or Grundy who can win the HO and play well around the ground. Look at Geelong, they don't have a bullocking ruck. Sweet had 51 HO and Port got smashed by Geelong in the final ikn 2024.

The game is a mids game and Swans got smashed in the midfield by Neale, Ashcroft, McCluggage, Dunkley. We don't need the sort of ruckman that uses his bulk to win the contest, we are the best stoppage and clearance team in the AFL.

[Axe Man]

Sweet had 51 disposals? Let's get him back!

[Bornadog]

At least someone reads my posts

[Geejay]

Tim English is quite an accomplished footballer and definitely an asset we can use to great advantage given his height and mobility and marking prowess. As a dogs supporter who has seen Dempsey,Round ,Purser,Wynd,Hudson,Minson(probably missed a couple)they would all play in front of Tim in the ruck, unfortunately we can’t do that.we just have to change something we cannot afford another season of the same. Crossley has to play from round 1,even given the enormous fitness doubts.English is his back up , with him predominantly playing forward whether he likes it or not. Lobb and Darcy both break glass in case of emergency.While Lobb has been outstanding since his move to chb and surprised everyone he has a history at all of his previous clubs and with us of spudding it up every season .I hate having these doubts and I know chb is new to him and positions him behind the ball but his career is littered with inconsistent seasons.let’s hope that is all behind him.

[dishlickers987]

Tim re-signed cos no one else wanted him.

Or at the very least he wasn’t getting any offers better than what the dogs gave him, which hopefully isn’t an overpay. Either way his stocks have taken a big hit the last couple years.

I’m all for Crossley getting a run this year and playing the role he did last Saturday.

[jeemak]

Tim re-signed cos no one else wanted him.

Nobody else wanted him at a price beyond what we wouldn't pay.

Outside of maybe Melbourne, Fremantle and Brisbane at a guess plus a couple more every single team in the competition would have taken English for big bucks if he didn't have his concussion issues over the last preseason and subsequent season's output.

Tim's malaise was to our benefit, and that's literally the only reason why we retained him at the price we did.

[Mofra]

Nobody else wanted him at a price beyond what we wouldn't pay.

Outside of maybe Melbourne, Fremantle and Brisbane at a guess plus a couple more every single team in the competition would have taken English for big bucks if he didn't have his concussion issues over the last preseason and subsequent season's output.

Tim's malaise was to our benefit, and that's literally the only reason why we retained him at the price we did.

There may have been offers slightly higher than ours, but it normally takes a premium to get a player out of a club.

Given our game plan relies on speed of ball movement it's not hard to see why we value a ruck who is good in transition over a ruck who is good at hit outs.

I'm still torn as I think the best attributes a ruck can bring is the "non stat" stuff - Ben Hudson was brilliant at this. Using his body to create space for the mids and getting back to complete at the long down the line opposition kicks.

[doggies ftw]

Given our game plan relies on speed of ball movement it's not hard to see why we value a ruck who is good in transition over a ruck who is good at hit outs.

Does it? They’d have me confused then.

Our game plan relies on stoppage dominance, repeat entries and time in forward half. Pretty much the antithesis of speed & ball movement

[doggies ftw]

Change that too.
There is a dislike for our rucks letting us down every time we play finals.

For me it’s just as much about what Tim could do unburdened with the ruck, he could be one of the most unique weapons in the comp floating back & forward, kicking goals dropping in the hole and using his skills and athleticism around the ground - behind an actual ruckman taking the brunt of the heavy lifting. No other team has an answer for what he could be, yet we’d prefer to waste him as a workhouse whose average at best amongst his peers?

Weve consistently missed such a big trick on this refusing to try an alternative, when we have a unicorn sitting there waiting to be unleashed and we’re using it to plow the fields. Imagine the oppo trying to find an answer for both Darce and English terrorising the air battle across the field whilst someone like Crossley (preferably better) protects our midfield and puts the ball on a platter for them.

Mind numbing - we’d be better in the midfield and better everywhere else but nah let’s keep doing the same thing over and over. Been treating us well so far I guess with all those seasons of not winning finals!

[Axe Man]

For me it’s just as much about what Tim could do unburdened with the ruck, he could be one of the most unique weapons in the comp floating back & forward, kicking goals dropping in the hole and using his skills and athleticism around the ground - behind an actual ruckman taking the brunt of the heavy lifting. No other team has an answer for what he could be, yet we’d prefer to waste him as a workhouse whose average at best amongst his peers?

Weve consistently missed such a big trick on this refusing to try an alternative, when we have a unicorn sitting there waiting to be unleashed and we’re using it to plow the fields. Imagine the oppo trying to find an answer for both Darce and English terrorising the air battle across the field whilst someone like Crossley (preferably better) protects our midfield and puts the ball on a platter for them.

Mind numbing - we’d be better in the midfield and better everywhere else but nah let’s keep doing the same thing over and over. Been treating us well so far I guess with all those seasons of not winning finals!

To me that is Tim's strength and what he does in the ruck when playing well anyway.

How would it work if he was roaming but not in the ruck? Is he playing midfield or are we going 1 short in the forward line?

[Mofra]

Does it? They’d have me confused then.

Our game plan relies on stoppage dominance, repeat entries and time in forward half. Pretty much the antithesis of speed & ball movement

In 2023 it was.
There's a reason we stuck with Bramble at the start of last year. We transitioned from bottom 4 to top 4 in D50 transition to F50 entries. It was a focus last pre-season and it looks like we're trying to speed that movement up again.

[Bornadog]

To me that is Tim's strength and what he does in the ruck when playing well anyway.

How would it work if he was roaming but not in the ruck? Is he playing midfield or are we going 1 short in the forward line?

Doesn't make sense. We win the clearances and stoppages with Tim in the ruck, so what is the big deal. Tim then plays like an oversized mid when there is no ruck contest. The constant bagging of the bloke is getting beyond ridiculous.

[doggies ftw]

To me that is Tim's strength and what he does in the ruck when playing well anyway.

How would it work if he was roaming but not in the ruck? Is he playing midfield or are we going 1 short in the forward line?

It is what he does in the ruck but I think we could amplify those strengths and hide his weaknesses. He’s a unique player so he should have a unique role.

Id start him on the wing a lot, not playing a traditional wingers role but let him push back or forward to create a mismatch depending on game situation, momentum, how he sees the play unfolding etc. Can present an option coming out of defence with his smart link up play or in a pack situation, can build a wall to keep the ball inside 50.

Will also still ruck 30% of the game (just will have generally a better match up against Oppos 2nds etc and will stay fresh) and will still start deep forward quite a bit as part of rotations like every other 2nd ruck in the comp.

Would also allow us to go shorter in either the forward line or backline or both, as a lot of people wish for. Ie id only run the two talls down back with Timmy having more freedom to push back to help out aerially.

I’m sure the coaches can come up with something that’s what they’re paid for, Tim is an amazing footballer with such a unique skillset he should be a weapon, he’s not a ruckman though. At the moment we use him where he’s average at best amongst other rucks it’s just a waste of resources.