Western Bulldogs V Hawthorn - 2nd Elimination Final @ MCG Friday 6 Sep 2024 7:40PM AEST

[Sedat]

Did Naughton play time in the ruck to gain an advantage where's our AA ruckman couldn't against a journeyman?

Meek might be on a journeyman's salary but he does not play like one. He is confident, assertive, competitive, aggressive and very influential - not bad for probably $400k a season. He wasn't there when Hawthorn were 0-5 (Reeves was their first choice ruck then), and since he forced his way in he has made a huge impact. Brilliant recruiting and moneyball talent spotting.

Conversely, English might get all the media fanfare, the AA accolades and has the fat contract, but he does not play a big man's ruck game at all. Based on the entire 2024 season, he is barely a competent mid-range ruckman - 25 weeks is a plenty big enough sample size to make that harsh but entirely fair evaluation. Apparently it's a big win that we have him locked away for another 5 years on $800k odd a season. Yay.

[DOG GOD]

Meek might be on a journeyman's salary but he does not play like one. He is confident, assertive, competitive, aggressive and very influential - not bad for probably $400k a season. He wasn't there when Hawthorn were 0-5 (Reeves was their first choice ruck then), and since he forced his way in he has made a huge impact. Brilliant recruiting and moneyball talent spotting.

Conversely, English might get all the media fanfare, the AA accolades and has the fat contract, but he does not play a big man's ruck game at all. Based on the entire 2024 season, he is barely a competent mid-range ruckman - 25 weeks is a plenty big enough sample size to make that harsh but entirely fair evaluation. Apparently it's a big win that we have him locked away for another 5 years on $800k odd a season. Yay.

And that 5 year investment will probably cost us finals.

[mighty_west]

Meek might be on a journeyman's salary but he does not play like one. He is confident, assertive, competitive, aggressive and very influential - not bad for probably $400k a season. He wasn't there when Hawthorn were 0-5 (Reeves was their first choice ruck then), and since he forced his way in he has made a huge impact. Brilliant recruiting and moneyball talent spotting.

Conversely, English might get all the media fanfare, the AA accolades and has the fat contract, but he does not play a big man's ruck game at all. Based on the entire 2024 season, he is barely a competent mid-range ruckman - 25 weeks is a plenty big enough sample size to make that harsh but entirely fair evaluation. Apparently it's a big win that we have him locked away for another 5 years on $800k odd a season. Yay.

100% He's actually 1 year younger than Timmy and also should be in his prime, couldn't get a game at Freo hence the move to the Hawks, he's actually had an outstanding season and a big reason like you said on the Hawks rapid rise, that said Tim still should dominate him, especially if you only compare contract sizes and the fact he's been working closely with our mids for years, Meek hasn't, and pound for pound it you stood both next to each other right now, reckon most people pick Meek, he just has that ruck craft for finals footy which is what you want, Timmy on the other hand........

[Grantysghost]

It should be reading the other way in fact, English should be dominating a journeyman ruckman, i understand Meek has been in good form but a 27 year old ruckman should be in his prime right now, his experience especially with the midfield group, his large 5 year contract, he has to do better especially in the big games and doing it consistently, i understand what he does around the ground is good but we have Naughton, Lobb, Darcy who could run around and do the same job.

Darcy will be #1 ruck soon and Tim will be forward/ruck. Darcy has that fire and competitiveness that can't be taught.

[merantau]

We simply cannot progress if we rely on Tim to spend 70% of his game time as our No.1 ruck. Time to flip the switch. Darcy No. 1. Tim plays forward, or back as needed. He is mostly good when he plays back and has shown that he can kick a goal. Why persist using him in a role that he has failed to live up to for a large part of his career?

[bulldogtragic]

We’ve got a 210cm elite KPF that the rules favour (arm chopping) and we want to not play him as a KPF because our ruck has no presence?

Get another ruck and let Tim fight for first ruck and let Darcy terrorise opposition defences. The kid can kick huge bags and we want hit outs and presence. Nah. Not for me. Leave him forward and recruit another first ruck with the best one in form to be selected. I think Tim knows only too well he’s playing g each week no matter how out of form he is. Time to make him fight for it.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Meek might be on a journeyman's salary but he does not play like one. He is confident, assertive, competitive, aggressive and very influential - not bad for probably $400k a season. He wasn't there when Hawthorn were 0-5 (Reeves was their first choice ruck then), and since he forced his way in he has made a huge impact. Brilliant recruiting and moneyball talent spotting.

Conversely, English might get all the media fanfare, the AA accolades and has the fat contract, but he does not play a big man's ruck game at all. Based on the entire 2024 season, he is barely a competent mid-range ruckman - 25 weeks is a plenty big enough sample size to make that harsh but entirely fair evaluation. Apparently it's a big win that we have him locked away for another 5 years on $800k odd a season. Yay.

We've had so long to accept this, I can't understand why we refused to cut our losses with Tim. How many times has he got to fail in big moments or big games before we realise he's actually not what we need? When you see the likes of Grundy (cheap), Meek (cheap and young), Briggs (cheap), Xerri (young and cheaper), Cameron (cheaper) - and I'm sure there's more - I would love to know how we justify 800k for English.

I keep reading we got him cheap as you mentioned, and many tried reasoning he was worth the 1M+ only 6 months ago. I see him as about a 550-600K player, but in truth, I just wanted us to move on from him at almost any cost.

Some have mentioned Darcy will overtake him soon, but Darcy could be the best forward in the game who can pinch hit (as he is now). Why would we change that!?

I'd rather Sweet and his contract than English...

Anyway, we're stuck with him now.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

We’ve got a 210cm elite KPF that the rules favour (arm chopping) and we want to not play him as a KPF because our ruck has no presence?

Get another ruck and let Tim fight for first ruck and let Darcy terrorise opposition defences. The kid can kick huge bags and we want hit outs and presence. Nah. Not for me. Leave him forward and recruit another first ruck with the best one in form to be selected. I think Tim knows only too well he’s playing g each week no matter how out of form he is. Time to make him fight for it.

This. Madness to move Darcy.

[Grantysghost]

We will not recruit another ruck so we have to think how we utilise what we've got I think.

I would rather Darcy forward however I don't think we lose that much with English there.

I think it's his best spot (English).

[bornadog]

We've had so long to accept this, I can't understand why we refused to cut our losses with Tim. How many times has he got to fail in big moments or big games before we realise he's actually not what we need? When you see the likes of Grundy (cheap), Meek (cheap and young), Briggs (cheap), Xerri (young and cheaper), Cameron (cheaper) - and I'm sure there's more - I would love to know how we justify 800k for English.

I keep reading we got him cheap as you mentioned, and many tried reasoning he was worth the 1M+ only 6 months ago. I see him as about a 550-600K player, but in truth, I just wanted us to move on from him at almost any cost.

Some have mentioned Darcy will overtake him soon, but Darcy could be the best forward in the game who can pinch hit (as he is now). Why would we change that!?

I'd rather Sweet and his contract than English...

Anyway, we're stuck with him now.

Grundy is on $1 million

[Sedat]

Grundy is on $1 million

Sydney is not paying him anywhere near the full amount. It's like saying Treloar is on a million a year when we are only paying him 600k

At what point will you become concerned that English is consistently dominated in big games, especially finals. His direct opponent has had a massive impact on the end result in the 2020 EF, 2021 GF, 2022 EF and now the 2024 EF. He was so poor as no 1 ruck in late 2021 that we preferred Lewis Young in the role for the first 2 finals. I can't recall any final out of the 7 we've played since 2019 that he has contributed positively in, except maybe the 2021 PF where Stef Martin was no 1 ruck.

Tim is not capable of being 'the man' for us. He hasn't thus far and he most likely won't in the future - he is to date a proven finals flop. We've invested so heavily into English as no 1 ruck since 2019 and the sunk cost is only getting bigger with absolutely zero finals/big game return on this massive investment.

It is maddening to think we've given him 5 more years based on the above repeated failure to perform in big games as no 1 ruck. It would be even more maddening if we back him in as our no 1 ruck without any competitive tension.

After Friday night, I'm completely done with the flawed concept of English the no 1 ruckman. Hopefully so is Bevo as well - it looked like he was fed up, to the extent of giving Naughton the keys in the 3rd qtr.

[JanLorMill]

Darcy will be #1 ruck soon and Tim will be forward/ruck. Darcy has that fire and competitiveness that can't be taught.

No proof Tim as forward will work and no proof 3 tall forwards works in high pressure finals.

[JanLorMill]

We've had so long to accept this, I can't understand why we refused to cut our losses with Tim. How many times has he got to fail in big moments or big games before we realise he's actually not what we need? When you see the likes of Grundy (cheap), Meek (cheap and young), Briggs (cheap), Xerri (young and cheaper), Cameron (cheaper) - and I'm sure there's more - I would love to know how we justify 800k for English.

I keep reading we got him cheap as you mentioned, and many tried reasoning he was worth the 1M+ only 6 months ago. I see him as about a 550-600K player, but in truth, I just wanted us to move on from him at almost any cost.

When I said as much a few months ago I was blasted.

[Sedat]

No proof Tim as forward will work and no proof 3 tall forwards works in high pressure finals.

First 6 weeks of 2021 English forward/2nd ruck was effective with Stef Martin as our no 1 ruck. We haven't really seen it since.

[JanLorMill]

First 6 weeks of 2021 English forward/2nd ruck was effective with Stef Martin as our no 1 ruck. We haven't really seen it since.

I don’t see it. His set shots are very hit or miss too. JUH like.